I have a 10 week old puppy just bought. He is a full blooded rat terrier, parents are full blooded and UKC. The thing is he has long hair. I have yet to see another rat terrier with long hair like our adorable Boomer. Can anyone let me know how this will affect him for breeding and showing if I decided to show him. Thank you.

Pictures of him can be seen on my yahoo blog...

http://360.yahoo.com/profile-mHfTLi8maadaXnvPEdHNtha7

Just copy and paste that into your address line.

Have him fixed, here is a quote from the UKC Rat Terrier breed Standard.

"Disqualifications: Absence of coat. Wirehaired, broken-coated, long-coated or longhaired."

So no, you can't breed or show him.

I may not be able to show him but I can and will breed him. Either with other long haired Rat Terriers or flat coated ones. He's just a pet, I didnt make any decisions on doing either but to say to fix him the way you did was not only snotting but rude. The history of the rat terrier is a jaded one at best with more mixing than southern plantations.. I think he'll be just fine... Thanks..

So first you wanted to show him, now you want to breed him with him being out of standard anyway? Thanks, but there are MORE THAN ENOUGH companions in the world. Do us a favour and try helping the breed.

And you obviously did not buy from a reputable breeder either. If you had, they would have had you sign a spay/neuter contract.

***Edited By: huskyhauler on 10/19/2006 5:34:07 PM***
Reason: +

I know english is hard to understand.. but where in my inquirey did I state I wanted to show.. All I was doing was looking for information and it is my choice to breed if I wanted to.. and facts be known I didnt state I was going to even do that untill someone decided they knew better than I do for my own pet. READ what I stated.. how will his long coat AFFECT his showing or breeding.... that simple.. all that was needed was to say.. that is not allowed in showing and that would of been fine. As for breeding I did find other long coated rat terriers in yahoo groups. Maybe I didnt state this loud enough.. he is a PET and he is only 10 weeks old I have plenty of time to decide what to do after I get all of the facts not just one person who tells me to get him fix as if he can command me. I dont work that way.

Here is the page from the UKC site in reguards to their standars... copy and paste the link


http://www.universalkennel.com/Standards/Standard%20Rat%20Terrier.htm


I'm not sure where he got his information but that is the site on his registration papers.. www.universalkennel.com
anyway he is making us very happy and it is a pleasure to have him in our home. I'm still looking for more and more information about his breed and will make my decisions as he gets older.

I only posted what I said, because you said you "will breed him".


I've owned Rat Terriers before, I love the breed, perhaps that's a small reason I reacted firey. I have had the smooth coated Rat Terrier and the hairless (American Hairless Terrier). I've never even seen a rough coated Rattie. In my pesonal experience, they do better in pairs. Perhaps, if you want to breed, you can get into showing with a smooth? I showed a smooth, but got out quickly, because personally, the dog show world doesn't do much for me. Spit me right back out.

I've been breeding for 30+ years...and trust me, my dogs are out of standard. They are working dogs, my Sibes are too tall, my Canadian Inuits are a little too stocky, blah blah. But, they are the best working dogs I've ever seen, and I constantly see their offspring winning competitions. IMO, breeding for just pet quality isn't really responsible. There are more than more than enough (yes i meant that one) companion animals in the world. Ratties can be used in a few sports.

The Universal Kennel Club is a fly-by night registry, and I'm sad to say your papers aren't worth much at all. If your dog had been United Kennel Club registered, it'd be a completely different matter as the United Kennel Club is a good and reputable registry. I did look at that breed desc for the rat terrier and it specifically says "COAT-Short, smooth, shiny. FLAW too thin." While a long coated dog is not listed as bieng a flaw it would be one as the coat is not "short, smooth and shiny".

Where did you get your puppy from? What do you know about his pedigree, about the health of the dogs in his pedigree, and their temperament? Have his parents had their knees/elbows OFAed as normal? Dog breeding should be about more than "I just want to breed my dog".

As for your question and I quote you here, "but where in my inquirey did I state I wanted to show"

If you reread your first post it clearly asks, "Can anyone let me know how this will affect him for breeding and showing if I decided to show him." You expressed an interest in showing your dog, therefore you got a response about showing your dog. Showing your dog is not an option, even if the Universal Kennel Club did dog shows, which it does not, as again, it is a fly by night registry.

I'm sorry you are offended by people's recommendation to fix your dog, but most of us, myself included, are dog lovers, mixed breed, purebred, etc, and we tend to recommend altering pet dogs, especially those that do not conform to the breed standard. This doesn't make those dogs bad dogs, or bad pets, or the people who recommend it bad or snotty people, we are just all giving our honest opinions.

Where did you get your puppy from? What do you know about his pedigree, about the health of the dogs in his pedigree, and their temperament? Have his parents had their knees/elbows OFAed as normal? Dog breeding should be about more than "I just want to breed my dog". When breeding dogs, there should always be a desire to breed dogs that produce dogs of the best physical quality, temperament, and health as possible. As all three of those areas are inheritable, it also means you should know as much as possible about every dog in your dog's pedigree, health issues, temperamental issues, etc. In addition, I'm wondering why you would want to breed your dog when he has a physical disqualifation that is not accepted by real rat terrier enthusiasts?

If I had a black and tan labrador retreiver (and yes it can happen) I wouldn't want to breed him, because he doesn't fit the definition of what a labrador retriever really should look like. If I did want to breed, I would (and did) search for a quality labrador retriever puppy, where I trusted the breeder, the health and bloodlines bloodlines of the dogs they've produced in the past and could always go to them if i had questions or concerns about my dog in the future.

Let's put that aside for now, and let's say you find someone who has annother rat terrer and you breed your dog to it... and 4 of the 8 puppies come up with severe elbow dysplasia within two years of being born. Crippling so. If 4 of the 8 puppies has this problem, it is DEFINITELY a genetic problem, and comes from both the mother and the father dog (and yes I actually know someone who this happened to). Would you care? Or would your concern about the health of these puppies end as soon as they left your house for their new homes? A good and responsible breeder has an emotional investment in any puppies they breed throughout that puppy's entire life, no matter who the owner is.


The breeder I got my lab from also has a United Kennel Club champion male rat terrier, and he is a great little dog, they really are wonderful pets. I'm not much for small dogs in general but I've met him, one of his Champion Titled sons, and one of his daughters and they are all incredibly friendly little dogs.

I went to your website and couldn't see any pictures of your new puppy. Maybe you could try posting them on http://www.photobucket.com it's very easyto use and link pictures

***Edited By: Minniyar on 10/19/2006 6:28:29 PM***
Reason: add

It says IF... that is a big IF.. I am no means a professional breeder. My term for breeding is obviously different than most others. IF he gets older and IF I wanted another puppy from him... like haveing dad and son dogs.. THEN I would want to find another rat terrier to breed with. I'm not talking having a puppy mill or selling hundreds of dogs a year I'm talking about having family.. IF the vet says he has problems with knees or anything else then of course I would have him fixed. But if he is healthy then sometime down the line I would want a part of him to carry on. I resuced Boomer from a woman at a flea market.. who was selling him and his flat coated sister. All I can do is take her word that his parents were full blooded.. I asked if they were healthy if there was any health issues and when he had his shots and wormed.Unless you know any breeder for any length of time that is basically all you can do is go by what they say and their rep. As for the universal kennel club... all I know is they have been around since 1938 and maybe new by AKC or United but doubt they'd still be in business if they were a fly by night operation. There are other types of shows besides the ones based purely on a standard.. this is a smart pup... in less than a week he is house broke, rolling over and coming on command. Pretty good for 10 weeks old and only being in my house since Saturday of last. That is why I am looking for more information so I can learn. You need to be signed into Yahoo.com to view the blog.. if you do not have a yahoo account just need to sign up for one.. it is free and easy. This is our first time with a dog of this breed. Our other dogs we had were killed in a house fire 3 years ago. We adopted each of them from a shelter here in our town. They were older dogs when we adopted them and this is the first puppy we have had. I'm doing the best I can and getting the most information I can get... so thank you all for your input.

Why would you want to breed a dog of such poor conformation?

I wasn't aware this dog is technically a flea market rescue...

Get ready for health problems. And BTW, VETS ARE NOT OFA!!! OFA testing is much better than just asking you're vet how your dog is doing.

i'm sorry but i read your blog and it doesn't sound like you "rescued" the dog at all.

you said your puppy was originally $65 and you bargained it down to $50, and that you felt like you "got a great deal":

"Lucky for me.. she went from 65 dollars asking price to 50.. for a UKC puppy.. I thought I got a great deal."

i will be the first to admit that i got my dog from a backyard breeder without knowing much; but i will never say that i went there with an intent to rescue, and i did not walk away from there assuring myself that i had rescued the dog. i bought the dog, plain and simple, for $200. had i not purchased him, someone else would have sooner or later, or he would have ended up in a shelter.

from the tone of your blog, it just seems like you also bought a dog at a flea market because of coincidence.

all this aside, even moreso because your dog is from a flea market and of unknown origin, maybe you should do a little more research.

many dogs are smart, and if you do some more researching, you will realize that even the akc is not the most ethical registry.

just think of it this way. dogs, like people, have genetic disorders. just because you don't see it physically from a general exam doesn't mean it's not there or that it won't show up later. i think that because your dog is from unknown stock that it is probable that he has small but critical problems that might affect his quality of life later on. and by making puppies from his genetic material, you might also be perpetuating these problems.

but by all means, if you feel the need to have a mini-me, breed him. and i'm not saying that to be sarcastic. just understand that there is sometimes a little more to it than "family"

Yes I do believe I got a good deal even dogs from the shelter here cost more... we did happen across him by accident.. after looking at hundreds and I do mean hundreds of dogs we were lucky enough to find him again 2 1/2 hours later than we first seen him and his sister. We didnt go to this flea market knowing we were going to buy a dog of any breed we didnt even know they sold dogs like that at flea markets but after walking around for that long and seeing that many dogs in dirty cages with no food or water we decided to bring this dog home with us. I do not know what kind of life it had before we found him and I'm not about to judge anyone who sold him. I'm sure she sold him for the same reasons many of the breeders here sell their dogs. I guess it was just OK for you to buy your animal so it wouldn't end up in a shelter or with someone else that might not of treated it as well as you thought you could of..but not ok for me... how judgemental. I didnt even think of that when buying him all I thought about was yay I have a new puppy...

As with anything in life nothing is garentieed even with full blooded standard dogs. All I can say is thank god people dont have the same stanards hanging over heads I'm sure most of the people in this world would be fixed or put to sleep. What mighty GOD complexes people seem to have on here.. I'm frankly sorry I even asked for information from such a site. But what do I know they are only dogs right? I'm compareing his rights to humans... You're ugly you can't have kids... your family has a history of cancer you can't have kids.. your family has MR/DD .. nope.. no kids for you. According to peoples standards all mix breeds should be fixed also without question... dont matter if sometime down the line you may want puppies from an animal you know was being cared for and healthy ..fix them.. they're mixed.

Seems to me I was trying to do a little more research.. asking the IF questions.. it seems to me that this is only a fight board... a judgemental board and if anyone disagrees with your views has to be wrong. Why would I want to breed a dog "of such poor conformation" because he is a beautiful dog that is going to be well taken care of.. well loved and very spoiled to me his standards are just fine as are the other long coated rat terriers I have seen today. As his owner it's MY decision. He may not be prefect but to me he is.. and will be loved no matter what.

huh. that's why i said i didn't buy him with an intent to rescue. YOU made it sound like yours was a helpless flea market dog that you "rescued" from a horrible situation.

which it wasn't. just because you bought your dog cheap from something other than a store or breeder doesn't mean it's actually a rescue. rescue usually connotates that you saved him from some sort of unfortunate situation. just because you assume it doesn't make it so, and it is proved moreso by the fact that you believe that it's a wonderful "ukc" registered dog that was such a great "bargain".

i didn't say that it was okay for me to do anything, please stop putting words in my mouth.

as for comparing people to animals, at least people have a conscious choice, and people usually don't discard other people into the streets if they get too big or become an inconvenience. you can't literally compare the procreation of humans to breeding dogs because it's comparing apples to oranges. if people are sick, they can go to the doctor and get help. if dogs are sick, they either have to rely on humans to take them to the vet, or die.

like i said, if you think you can take care of all the dogs you make, then by all means, it is your decision. it's good that you're researching, but don't expect people on this forum to congratulate you for insisting on breeding.

I stated what he was in the blog. I am still figureing out the meanings of AKC, UKC and UKC. Yeah, I was and still am excited about having a registered dog because I've never owned one before. I still have the green forum to send in and guess what I might not even do that. Why? because I'm still learning and getting information ... and since he is a long coated rat terrier I might not register him at all...so you go ahead and judge all you want... Only one person above me can judge me.

I bought him from the woman at the flea market that had him in a small crate on a wagon with no food or water going around for hours on end. If that isn't a rescued then I dont know what is. I also said I dont know anything about his home before mine and I will not judge her as you have judged me. I didnt go anywhere with the intent of doing anything. I stated...I didnt even know they were going to have dogs there. We never went to a flea market like this before. It wasn't in our area of our state and was a complete surprise to see what we did see.

We, meaning people, dont discard other people into the street??? Tell that to the thousands of homeless people this nation has..Oue supposed loved ones left at nursing homes and forgotten and tell that to all the children in foster care and orphanges and please tell that to all the abandoned babies found in dumpsters and bathrooms every year.

If and I did say IF i do decided to breed him I will keep his litter. If I happen to find homes for a few in that litter that's fine to but I'm not about to sell them. My intent on finding out information on this breed or about his long coat wasn't about how much money I can get it was so I would know and learn.

Now IF you'll excuse me I need to make Boomer his breakfast he has been sleeping in his pen all night and was a very good boy didnt wake up or cry at all last night. Then we're going to play outside for a min or two chaseing the leaves till he goes potty then we're going to chase the cats around for a bit. We have better things to do than to sit on this fight board and argue.... too bad others can't do the same.

I am willing to bet even if your puppy had terminal cancer the person you brought him from still would have said, "oh he's perfectly healthy and has all his shots!" Especially after your description of the conditions the puppies were kept in, it doesn't sound like she gavea rip about the health of the puppies, she just knew that saying they were healthy and had shots meant she'd get money for them.

Many homeless people do live in the streets, but we dont' take homeless people to a place where they can be euthanized. We don't legally euthanize 6 million homeless people or children a year, and they aren't dropped off because they 'dig' or 'smell' or 'shed'. 99% of all dog breeds would not exist were it not for the intervention of humans who choose which dogs they will breed with.

If you really are interested in breeding, why don't you do some research into responsible breeding, which starts with having a quality dog? You say you will keep the puppies, but it probably won't be your decision unless you own the female. The puppies stay with the mother dog's owner, so she generally is the one who makes the decisions regarding the fate of any puppies. If you're going to get a female dog to breed wtih your male, why not get a GOOD female that's registered with a real registry like the United Kennel Club, comes with a good health guarantee and pedigree and start from there? Then you can either seek out a GOOD male to breed with her, instead of starting with a flea market pet of unknown health and origins?

Many times you get what you pay for when you buy dogs from flea markets. You may have paid $50 for your pup and feel like you got a bargain for a registered dog, but I've heard many many horror stories about people who've ended up spending literlaly thousands of dollars keeping these puppies alive and on surgery to fight off crippling genetic defects. When I bought my lab, I spent significantely more than you, but he came with a lifelong health guarantee against genetic defects, i know exactly what the temperament of every dog in his immediate family is and I know they are all OFAed for hips and elbows, and CERF examed for eyes. So that even if he does have problems the breeder will cover the costs.

Well, what we have here is a new backyard breeder in the making. No showing, breeding a dog with a disqualifying fault to another dog with a disqualifying fault. Wow, what a piece of work you are. Did you get this puppy from
a) an online ad; b) a petstore; c) the newspaper; d) a backyard breeder?

No reputable breeder would sell a dog with a disqualifying fauit EVEN AS A PET on a full registration knowing you planned to breed this dog. No one reputable will breed to your dog.

I see the registry is Universal Kennel Club which is nothing more than a sham papermill created to "register" puppymill and backyard breeder dogs. Ugh.

Since you got your puppy at a freaking FLEA MARKET, you have no idea whether or not this is a purebred. Since UKC will register pretty much anything with a pulse, I would bet not. Gag!
You need to do some research and get a clue. You are sadly lacking in both I fear.



***Edited By: Houndz2000 on 10/20/2006 9:57:22 AM***
Reason: X

Finally someone that has some sense.. ty Minniyar.. good suggestions. IF I decided to get into breeding I will do the research and look into it more. IF I want puppies I'll just buy a dog worthy of akc standards but honestly that's not what I'm interrested in. I just wanted info and snapped back at someone telling me I HAD to do something without really givening me a good reason as to why, but others have since. To me its not about the money so no matter how little or how much I spent on Boomer he was worth it to me.

When I get a dog I get them for life. Our last three dogs we got from a shelter were older dogs.. the first one was shasta.. got her at the age of 7.. died at the age of almost 18.. our second dog.. lucy was 3 and died at the age of 8 and our last dog was emma.. age around 4 and died at 6 they all died in our house fire otherwise we'd still have them with us. All three went to the vet on a reg basis.. All three were fixed. All three were also mixed. This is our first puppy and first rat terrier and I just wanted information and I had a bunch of ideas and questions in my head. It's not the temperment of the dogs I have in question but the termperment of the other dog owners that has me worried.

I do not know what my plans are with Boomer he is only 10 weeks old almost 11, that's why I wanted to talk not argue with people that knew the ins and outs of the breed and try to understand what goes on since this is my first time even doing research. I didnt even know the term OFA or BYB untill I came here and then seen the words and looked them up.

Houndz do you ever read all of the enteries before you spout out at the fingertips? Looks like I'm not the only one that needs to read more I'm just the one addmitting it.

Ah, a connection made. Good job, Minniyar, for stating things in a way that helped the OP make important realizations. Good job, Wraylynn, for accepting the fact that you need more info than what you have. See what can happen when info is stated diplomatically, rather than offensively?

Amen!